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Racism: If we understand what it is we can fight it.

Started by Richard Mellor, February 13, 2009, 06:16:25 pm

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Richard Mellor

The problem with Butler is that he is dishonest. It is not the first time he has not just distorted but lied about things others have said.  Nowhere did I say I didn't support Affirmative Action.  I said that that it was inadequate and not a solution to racism in America.  I then gave my opinion as to what I though about it in general.

I am sorry Greg, you can use lies and distortions but your not going to guilt trip me in to submission, save that for the white liberals; actually, its more than that, it's an undemocratic attempt to silence people.  Your ridiculous approach, calling on one set of workers to lose their jobs in order that others can get them you should apply to your own situation as a carpenter.  As I have said, women have been kept from this trade historically longer than men, its your turn to be unemployed Greg.  Let's see you do the right thing by your own method.

I am done discussing with you becasue you are dishonest. Last time I bothered to respond to something you said that was clearly false you simply ignored it and continued. Liek the Israeli facts on the ground, if you distort the truth loundly and long enough we'll all believe the lies.

I have written plenty on racism and fought it at work. I have never denied the brutal history of racism in this country and certain responsibilities white workers have in recognizing it. Those two pieces I usually send out that are in the CL archives I handed out at work every Black History Month before I retired.

As you know, Greg I have had numerous clashes with you over your racist demagoguery and divisive atacks on other workers.  These words below from you were an attack on the undocumented workers, women and such during a discussion we were having on another list about immigration:

You wrote:
Here in New York, union carpenters work a 7 hour day, and make $ 280 a day, plus benifits.
Non union carpenters here, who are citizens or legal immigrants, make
anywhere from around $ 75 a day to around $ 150 a day. But, the illegal aliens make anwhere from $ 20 to $ 35 bucks a day, plus a sandwich, cause they can't afford to buy lunch at that wage.

Now, in my opinion, when you accept wages that undercut the local
standard that deeply, YOU ARE A SCAB.

ESPECIALLY if you are an illegal alien.

Remember, these are folks who cut the line, at the expense of
legimate immigrants. Instead of waiting their turn, going to the US
Consulate and applying for an immigrant visa, they either snuck
across a border, or got themselves a tourist visa under false
pretenses, and then "forgot" to go home when the visa expired.

These folks are tresspassers, brother.

They are criminals, in the same catagory with drug dealers,
prostitutes and burglars. In fact, illegal immigration is a form of burglary, that is, unlawful entry for purposes of unjust enrichment.
As far as your statement that we "can't" stop these folks from coming
here, I've got to dissagree with you.
I belive that any boss who undercuts American and legal immigrant
worker's wages should be picketed, and shut down, until they are
compelled to hire workers at American standard of living wages, and
to not hire illegals.
If the illegals can't find work anymore, they will have no choice but
to go home. And they'll tell potential illegal aliens not to come
here, as there are no jobs for tresspassing scabs available here."

end quote.

Re-read your words here Greg and think about whether they build workign class unity or divide it. Whether they strengthen racial and gender divisions or weaken them.  Your views at times, Greg makes me wonder exactly what or who you are such is the divisive nature of your approach.  I assume you have put out programs or ran for office or made some public styatement in the workplace.  I'd be interested in seeng one of them.  Other than that, I am done with trying to have a mature discussion with you on any subject.

GREGORYABUTLER

Richard,

I'm not interested in "guilt trips" - I'm not Catholic, and I haven't been an Episcopalian since I was 8, so I really have no interest in that sort of thing.

I am interested in the prospect of revolution.

And, during the course of my decade or so of revolutionary journalism, I've come to the conclusion that a working class  revolution in America is going to be a Black and Latino thing, with little to no White participation.

This is because of America's ugly racist history - in particular White America's Negrophobia.

Now, as Lenin said a long time ago, workers of oppressor nationalities (like, in this case, White Americans) have to EARN the trust of workers of oppressed nationalities (like, for instance, African Americans and Latinos) or those oppressed workers are simply NOT going to join hands with the oppressor workers.

He was right on the money - and I would hope that as a Trotskyist you would know that and embrace his teachings, no matter what the hell you think of me.

On my words - yes, at one time, I did indeed oppose illegal immigration.

I was not correct in that position and I was won to my current position by studying the past and present struggles of Latino workers in America, and by realizing based on those studies that it was possible, despite the anti Black racism of many Latinos, to envision a Black-Latino revolutionary workers alliance.

I haven't seen any similar evidence of the possibilities of a Black White revolutionary workers alliance.

One of the reasons I DON'T think that a Black White workers alliance is possible is because I really don't see a mass willingness of White workers even the leftist ones like you to renounce race privilige.

It's actually kind of shameful that so many Trotskyist groups - like your outfit, Labor's Militant Voice the group you split off from The Committee for a Workers International, the League for a Revolutionary Party the granddaddy of non Pabloist American Trostkyist groups, the Spartacist League their splinter cells the Bolshevik Tendency and the Internationalist Group all have a shamefully White Nationalist and objectively racist line on Affirmative Action for Black and Latino workers - that is, they all flatly oppose Affirmative Action

When even the White left are racist - and are in fact more backwards on Affirmative Action than a lot of White liberals! - then I really have to question the real possibilities of "Black and White Unite and Fight"

Hate to say it, but at least the damned Stalinists have the decency to support Affirmative Action. The Revolutionary Communist Party, Workers World, Progressive Labor Party and the granddaddy of all American Stalinist groups the barnacle coated red white and blue Communist Party, USA wouldn't be caught DEAD failing to support Affirmative Action

Brother, you can huff and puff about immigrants all you want (even though you had to dredge up a 10 year old quote to attack me with - a really Spartacistesque tactic!) just like you huffed and puffed about women a few posts ago.

But you can't get beyond the fact that a White American communist who is against Affirmative Action is what Lenin would have called a "Jingo Socialist"
fraternally,
GREGORY A. BUTLER, LOCAL 157 CARPENTER
for GANGBOX: CONSTRUCTION WORKERS NEWS SERVICE
http://gangboxnews.blogspot.com
"UNION NOW, UNION FOREVER"